In separation between church and state, can a judge order somebody to attend AA meetings?

I've read many times about people who get arrested and charged with DUI, and the judge then ordering that person to attend AA meetings, prior to any conviction. No matter what religion the person has.





AA clearly has a Higher Power in it. AA hints very strongly that this Higher Power is God.





I hardly ever drink, but I have lived with alcoholics in the past. I've seen how an atheist can follow AA, and for themselves take the Higher Power out of the therapy. So, I know it's possible. The topic here is not AA.





I was wondering how specially atheists/agnostics feel about this. Is it an example where separation of church and state has gotten a bit vague?In separation between church and state, can a judge order somebody to attend AA meetings?
AA is too religious, and deemed unconstitutional to force someone to.





My brother, though, was forced to go to a psychologist when he was convicted (relatively minor crime, and he was 17, so no jail). We were all so happy. We'd been trying to force him to go to a psychologist for years. *chuckles*





Maybe a psychological alcoholics group would be a good thing to form. Group therapy is effective, and it doesn't have to be religiously oriented at all. That's the solution, I think.





I'm pagan, btw.In separation between church and state, can a judge order somebody to attend AA meetings?
I may be mistaken, but my understanding is that the person has the option of choosing alternative treatment methods.





%26lt;edit%26gt; Actually, it looks like judges no longer order people to AA.
I think (forgive me, I'm not sure on this) that since that Higher Power doesn't have to be any God in particular, or a god at all, that it's not a violation. However, I seem to recall situations where mandatory AA meetings were struck down, or at least challenged by the ACLU, for religious reasons.
The best thing to do is not to drink and drive. It's sad that someone would think so little of human life that he/she would drink and then drive. What's worse is that it is most often the innocent who is killed and not the drunk.





I have been to many Alanon meetings, and at no tims has it ever been ';hinted strongly'; that the Highere Power is Christ.
12 step programs do not define who the Higher Power is. Using the term God does not automatically imply any specific deity. For some, the program is their Higher Power, for others, it's the universe.





Surely, even an atheist can acknowledge some power greater than him/herself, even if that power is only the group of recovering people.
No. It is the choice the judge gives you. You have the choice to go to AA or spend time in jail. You don't have to go to AA. You can go straight to jail. The judge really doesn't care.





Are you not understanding that the AA program has helped more drunks and alcoholics and drug addicts than any other organization. This is all that the judge has to offer you for rehabilitation in his area.





The choice is AA or Jail. Choose.
I got a DUI several years ago and had to go to AA. I talked to the Magistrate and they said there were no secular organizations that they had approved. And yes, it was ordered by the judge. I had to have an assessment done, which determined how many classes I had to take, and then I had to sit in a certain number of AA meetings. This was not an option.





So I sat in a few AA meetings. No big deal, but it is most certainly not secular.








(Hahahaha, Jean's answer is eloquent as always... religion or jail... that's fair right? You people are hilarious!!!! :) )
First of all, I am sure I will blow your mind by telling you there is NOTHING in any of our national documents that says ';separation of church and state';. That line was from a letter Thomas Jefferson wrote to a group of Baptists.





Second, this IS a Christian country, always has been. 78% of people claim to be Christians.





If a judge orders you to AA, you better go, or go to jail.





If you've got a problem with a ';Higher Power';, you have more than a drinking problem. Oh, no hinting, they DO mean God!
AA can be permitted as one alternative. The important issue is that it is a recognized rehabilitative therapy and an alternative to imprisonment. But it can't be mandatory.
In America, the lines between church and state are getting more and more blurry, sad to say.
Actually the higher power is up to the individual. Meetings are a great place to start for someone who has a problem. I never feel a religious overtone in meetings. It is a great start for people to get to the root of the real problem. It is all about trusting in a power greater than yourself. The group alone is greater than one, and often that is the higher power of the individual. AA in no way tells people what they should believe in.
Yes... they do... and we are just starting to get court rulings to allow secular treatment programs as alternatives.
There is no such thing as seperation of church and state. feel free to prove me wrong.








God bless,
You have an option of AA classes or Months of Jail time. Now what would you choose ';Wise Guy';. You can become some hair-legged Bubba's ';wife'; or attend a few AA Classes. Only a gay boy would choose jail.


What is you Point?
There is no clause in the Constitiution which uses the phrase ';seperation of Church and State';.





It does say in the Constitution that:





';Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;';





This provision is clearly limited to the actions of the legislative branch.





A judge, not being a member of Congress, is obviously is not limited by this provision in any way.





Everything else is interpretation blended with speculation.
since AA works... the judge is going to be predisposed to place an addict where he knows they will recieve adequate treatment and behavior modification training.
AA's higher power is God?


There's a lot of confusion in this question. AA is not a government agency. Is a non-profit organization. The courts order to attend rehab meetings, whether is AA or any other org. dedicated to alcoholism rehab.Church has no influence in what the justice system demands from the offender. The courts are no ordering to go and believe God is going to save you, they are implementing methods to avoid bigger harm in the future.
hey there! good evening! i read your question very carefully, and although you mentioned the topic is not AA, i'd like to elaborate a little more clearly 1 thing that wil lead to my answer to your question...


so amuse an old lady ;)


you wrote: ';that this power is God';. But for many in the program, they are glad ';God'; does not mean anyone's interpretation of god. people in AA state and so does their ';big blue book'; that this HP can be a very tall tree in your front yard or another person who has been sober longer than the newbie coming in. It is merely SOMETHING that is BIGGER than 'you'. For this reason, it is spiritual, not religious, and because of THAT, the courts can order/command/whatever for a person to go to AA.


I have plenty of friends who are agnostics, atheists,christian, etc. i'm pretty open-minded....and my atheist friends are hesitant to admit THEY are the biggest thing in the universe because that would almost make them a God. get it? so they gladly admit there are stronger and more powerful things in the universe than they. I hope this ain't confusing.
there is no law.it is per person.
How is that any different then the Indian boy who the judge ordered to stay sentenced by his tribe to one year on an island for his offense instead of the Judaical system sentencing him to jail? I think each judge to some point has discretion to decided the greater fate of these crimes.
';Separation of Church and State'; is a myth being perpetuated by the ACLU and approved by liberal, activist Judges.





The ACLU cites the 1st Ammendment as their argument... I suggest you read it for yourself... And please show where the words ';separation';, ';Church';, or ';State'; appears...





What the 1st Ammendment does is guarantee that the government will not establish a religion but will guarantee the free exercise of religion in America.





The ACLU turns this around and is trying to change the ';free exercise of religion'; into.. ';Freedom from religion';.... Which of course is the agenda of all militant, anti-God, anti-Christian atheists in America.





Please note the distinction before you give me more thumbs down... Not all atheists are ';militant, anti-God, or anti-Christian.. But, if the shoe fits... Wear it.





Thank you, Truthsayer